Joseph Grady

Welcome to 100 Stories, the narrative intelligence project. I'm your host, Paige Williams. This series explores a question at the center of how we become who we are. How malleable are the stories we live by? And what does it take to change one across 100 conversations? I'm speaking with thinkers, creators, leaders, researchers, healers, and those whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together, we're examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity, and the human capacity [music] that allow us to see, to question, and to transform story. These conversations are helping shape the world of narrative intelligence and the

book that I am writing about it today. I am speaking with Joseph Grady. He's a Renaissance man, an actor, an artist, a writer, and a producer who's focusing on documentary and narrative storytelling and film. I'm so excited to have Joseph on 100 stories. I [music] met Joseph as a result of his film Return to the Blanket that was submitted to the indigenous documentary film challenge on my site oddpop.com and it won. Return to the Blanket is an incredible story about Joseph and what happened to him. Joseph, thank you for being here. I'm so excited to have you and for you to tell your story to our audience. Welcome to 100 Stories.

>> Yeah, thank you for having me and thanks for the wonderful introduction and especially like introducing the film because that's really sort of the crux of my work right now. >> God, it's beautiful and we'll put a link so people can watch it. >> Cool. Thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's just dive right in and I would love for you to tell me about the work and experiences that have most shaped how you see yourself and the world.

>> That's been very much an evolving story that interestingly enough was the I I think the storytelling part of it in the action and the mobility was stifled probably with about 18 years of like really intense alcoholism. like it was just it like life stops, growth ceases to happen, development, you know, is something that sort of falls by the wayside and you just become lost. And so following following that and sort of having this wake up moment, if you will, the the initial recognition of self, I think I had first was I want to be alive. I want to live and a real sort of profound awareness of that like this is this is where I need to be. Whereas I

think even moments prior to that was like not much mattered right in terms of I could go I could stay no one would miss me blah blah you know all of that sort of business but from that moment was had developed this almost immediate sense of purpose if you will where you know in that moment kind of had this you'll hear people say life flash before your eyes kind of a thing. This was more of a forward-looking kind of flash before your eyes where it's like all of the stuff that you've wanted to do that's been left undone. let's get busy.

And I remember standing up in that moment being a lot and especially about the alcoholism and the drinking was like I don't have to do this anymore. I I it was such a profound deeply felt moment that had had not come to me prior to that. It was I don't have to do this anymore. I I can go I can go live. And I was able to get up and sort of walk out of that moment and you know got very sick for a while of course and then you know was was on to the to the business of living if you will which was rebuilding from you know the detritus of what was my life. But in that moment just realized that I had a lot of creative ambitions that had not been fulfilled. And you know for me the film

work and and and writing and that sort of thing um started when I was a kid. you know, it was very much like watching movies with my dad and listening to soundtracks and just being captivated by what was happening on the screen and thinking that would, you know, I want to do that. That's that's something that I want to be involved with somehow, right? And so as as I came out of out of this sort of haze of of alcoholism, still very much the alcoholic but you know getting well was immediately into school and and you know seeking a degree and you know I pursued pursued social work I think largely on the basis that it seemed a bit like a calling. It seemed

like something that fit. It seemed like a stable living like you know my dad had always ingrained in me you know you got to get that paycheck and you got to have a life. don't just be the artist, you have to have a career, right? And so programmed with that thinking kind of went into this school thing, thinking I need to find something where I can get a job and I need to do something that has like the least amount of math involved in the education and social work was it.

I mean, that was kind of like the main thing and I I quip about that a little bit, but there is some seriousness to that. But that said, going through school and starting on that journey, one thing, you know, one day led into the next into the next into the next and opportunity started to sort of grow. Amazing how you participate in life and opportunity presents itself. And that really is is sort of the the the crux of it. And I was like a sponge. I was very much I want some of that and I I need some of this and I want I want to get with the sobriety group and the you know the the education and I want to learn as much as I can and you know humility was

such a big part of it too. I mean, when you when you walk out of that setting as an alcoholic, you there really is a sense that you can't go lower, even though you know you can, right? We all know that we can as alcoholics. There's always another basement, right? I start humble and I I build on top of that and I listen and I learn and I pay attention. I'm not the knowit-all. I don't I don't know everything. Teach me.

Right? So, that was very much the energy that I was moving through this part of my life with. And I've tried to maintain that sort of student aspect. And I I think as I was going through school and and being in social work and I started taking acting classes and film study classes along, you know, just sort of as my electives, if you will. We started up with a a dual degree in Native American studies and social work. So I was building out of those with the intention of sort of embracing my own identity and learning more about Montana's indigenous cultures and peoples and so forth. you know, having been adopted out of that setting, which is really what the

documentary is about, is what I was exploring fundamentally into my core in those moments was going to school, meeting other indigenous students, meeting students who come directly from the Black Feet Nation and hearing our language spoken. I was able to study our language in college, which ironically satisfied my foreign language, which for me, you know, some rarified air, if you will. I was into a space where it's like I never thought that I would ever have this opportunity in this setting to be introduced to some of the like some of the most core and fundamental like communication processes of the people that I come from and learning from other

language speakers and how language informs your view of the world as you look out into the world and as you interpret the world and filter it through your process of language. How you how you in engage with that environment is so informed with how we speak and how we interpret the language that we communicate with. It is it is it like literally shapes how we look at the world. And I started learning this from some of the other language speakers especially those who are you know taking it to the next level and making language their focus in their education. And so that that was really transformative for me. And it really tuned me in and and I think in a much clearer way in how I

listen. And it was like it's it's not just words and wait for your moment to speak. It's what's being said by the other person. And this has informed me in script writing, in in reading other people's material, in interpreting. Like if I get a script in front of me and I'm reading the words, so much of that history is informing how I engage with the language on the page and go beyond myself to be able to try and understand what it is that the writer is is putting down on the page. What is the what is the mood that they're going after? Not just how do I think these words should be. What is the writer telling me through through the language? And so

it's made me a lot more attuned to what it is that we're communicating to one another and how we're speaking to each other. It was so informative and almost freeing in a way to hear language spoken about in that way. I think as I was growing up, my dad's a mathematician. He's electrical engineer and a professor of engineering. I grew up in an education household and I know the importance of education was ground into me. And he would always talk about mathematics in the same way. and he changed my thinking about math. He was like, "We're taught math the wrong way.

It's it's about numbers. People think it's about numbers, addition, subtraction, quantities, if you will." He says, "But it's a language and if you learn how to speak it, you can summarize a concept in a single page with mathematics where it would take chapters to describe what is being told within the frame of a math equation. And he was just he to to to illustrate the example, he said, "A pitcher taking a ball and throwing it to a catcher would take you pages and pages and pages to describe in depth of all of the motions and everything that's happening. Whereas with math, you can do that in a essentially a short paragraph with greater detail." And I so like the idea

of how we communicate the the way that language is is proposed. I think how we can often times get locked into our own ways of speaking can be very much a blockade to our understanding of the world. And so having that understanding gave me a kind of humility in that space to step away from from communication as kind of a know-it-all as well and was able to be more of a student to what other people were saying and how people were speaking. And this literally was sort of the path that I discovered along the way. It came through education and then it moved into just my my professional identity and and how I want to be creatively and and how especially

how I want to communicate through the w written word to the audience or the or the reader. >> Beautiful. Thank you. So transformed your life. You had this beautiful moment where you said no more and you were able to put the drink down and begin living. >> Yeah. I'd love for you to talk about what it takes to be able to get to that point and then the story you tell about that defining moment >> in your life and has it changed over the last 20 years.

>> Well, the moment itself is like, you know, burned in my brain cuz I thought I was losing my mind at the moment that it was happening. And to give you kind of a comparison, I was I I took a trip with some other some fellow students. we were uh accepted to this to this program in South Dakota or North, excuse me, North Dakota where there was a symposium and it was a it was indigenous speakers and educators and I applied for a grant to to pay for the flight out and to be able to attend and got the grant. So, I was able to they booked me a flight and everything. I was like, I've never done anything like that before. You know, it's like I'm used to being like

homeless and and you know, scrapping it out from day to day for a drink. This to me was completely unfamiliar having somebody book me a flight and welcome me out to be participating in this indigenous symposium. And so while we were out there a group of us were like hey let's go up to to this place I think it was called Bear Mountain. And there were they were like you can hike up to the top of it and half of it is national park and half of it is it you know belongs to the tribes and there's this sort of cooperation or maybe collaborative occupation of the space.

And so when we got up there, there was a fasting that was happening and the men men from the community were going up onto the hill into individual sweat lodges and they were fasting and vision questing if you will and which is essentially in that moment when I found sobriety was days without eating. It was a lot of alcohol consumption. It was very little sleep. It was out in the, you know, hot air all day. And I had what I would describe and this is just sort of you know sort of that western upbringing if you will. I had this what many of my indigenous friends colleagues would refer to as a vision. And for me it was a sleep and food deprivation

induced hallucination where I saw an entity that was sitting next to me. And it was it was really crazy. And like the way that I would describe it is that you know sort of if somebody took the contrast and brought it way up and brought the color way up immediately in your surrounding you would notice that you would be like wow something's quite different. And that's lit what I experienced visually was this heightening of of intensity of color and and you know like hard lines and so forth were even harder. And then there was this figure sitting next to me. And my first my first like really fear induced understanding of that moment was I've lost it. I'm I'm I'm gone. This is

what it's like to to no longer have full grasp of your faculties and and understanding of your surroundings. I'm seeing something that can't be there and wasn't there. And then this dialogue started and it was more it just sort of speaking and me just being motionless because I was unaccepting of what was happening. And what seemed like a very long time was just this me listening to this thing. And the way that I describe it too is that if it was an internal manifestation, then it was it was relating to me all the things I've been needing to hear from myself, if you will, about purpose, about needing to find being, about needing to be sharing

my experience in a way that was healing for others. There was there was a lot of that sort of infused into that moment which literally was so freeing when I came to if you will >> out [clears throat] of that because eventually that just sort of faded and dissipated and it was no longer there the figure and I was just sitting there where I had been before but it was like hours later so I assume that I had passed out or blacked out or something.

Anyway, the moment passes and that's where I was able to be like holy smokes I I don't have to do this anymore. I've got this other thing I got to go do and I don't have to do this anymore. And I went and I went across the the river. There was the the bridge there, the foot bridge in Missoula. I went across the bridge. I had enough to check into a hotel. And then there was this period of like a week of just being really sick. I should have been in a hospital.

>> Yeah. Quite frankly, there was like seizures and biting my lip and coming to and when I was able to actually keep water down and at some point my brother had ordered me a pizza and I don't fully remember that conversation, everything just was like really clippy and spotty. Once awareness returned, I was able to start sort of on that path of like, okay, I'm going to go to a 12step meeting and I'm going to start like actually doing it and I'm going to explore this this sobriety thing with a real commitment. So for me, I had to get like all the way down to learn some moment that brought me to a place where I was like, "Okay, enough. I need I I I

no longer want this. It's no longer acceptable to whatever degree, even though I tried over and over again to stop drinking." I hated my life. This there was something freeing. And and the way that that I describe it is for years prior, there was this sort of feeling. And in that moment, it was just being released. And I don't know why. I don't I don't question that necessarily either. It's not like I'm sitting here.

I go, "Why me?" It was just it was the time. It was the moment. It happened. I feel really fortunate for having had that moment cuz I know that not everyone finds that. And so that's also kind of part of the responsibility too is like I've been gifted this thing for some reason and now it's time to sort of maximize on it. And when I was in I think one of the first meetings that I had gone to, you know, where I'm surrounded by these other alcoholics and people are quoting from the big book and they're they're talking about this and that. I heard someone say a phrase that just stuck with me. They said that I want to be of maximum benefit to my fellows. And that that desire lived like

loudly inside of me at that moment. and I just so desired to be of youth and I didn't know what that looked like and you know that that lends also to the social work pathway and so forth that I want to be in the helping fields and and so that was sort of the beginning beginning of the journey and then the rest of the way was self-discovery in this awakening process where I was absorbing everything and wanting to learn and I was excited about the challenging stuff and it didn't matter if I didn't think I could do it I was just going to charge headlong into it anyway and if it didn't work out. Oh well, I'm just going to go then try this, right? Because I knew what it was

like to already beat down with nothing. And I I wanted to take root in something that got me moving in the right direction. And how that grew up was I was I was literally in this place where I'm like, it's going to be what it's going to be, man. And all you got to do is show up and participate, right? And you know, the what I've gotten out of that is I think when when people get sober, the thing you have to realize is it's not about deserve. Because if I got what I deserved, this would be a different story. Let's be fair. I'll probably be locked up. Um, you know, cuz I drove drunk, you know, and behave poorly. Characterize it as something that we necessarily deserve. It's I

think it's what you make yourself available for. And I think it's how we you you open yourself up and listen to the universe in a way where it's you become receptive to something much larger than you. And that's where in that sobriety thing it's like you need a higher power, you need this kind of a thing and you need all these identities and so forth. And what I was struggling with and what I've struggled with throughout um most of my adult life is an inability an inability I'll describe it that way to have faith to have a belief in something that I'm not convinced is there and I can't shut that off. Right? So, I struggled with that in my early sobriety. And you know, for me,

there's just, you know, those moments where I'm alone, I'm outside. And I found myself captivated in this looking at the stars and thinking about how finite we are and how limited our our time is and our responsibility to that and so forth. But then I felt very like humbled and I felt amazingly maybe gratitude is a way of putting it. It was it was much bigger than that. I just suddenly felt sort of aruck that despite the randomness of the university and all universe and all of its violence and craziness that I had this opportunity in this moment to have a sentient experience with my surroundings and to be able to have this moment where I'm literally observing it happening. And

that was like the most godlike thing that I ever had in my life because I felt little old me has this opportunity to be a part of it. And and that was so rewarding to me. And it also made my sense of responsibility much bigger, right? Where maybe without that concept, I felt beholden to something much larger than myself. and my, you know, the celebrations were great, but the complaining kind of became less important, right? And so that really helped temper, I think, some of that, some of that the darker voices in my head. And I felt really I felt like what an amazing opportunity is just to to exist and to have this opportunity to sort of witness this world we live in

and be a part of it. And then to try and be a part of a much larger story as well was was very grounding for me. the the the faith thing that I was struggling with in in sobriety became no longer a struggle. The sense of purpose in that sort of higher power struggle was was answered in a way, if you will, and and then I was able to move forward from that. And the wellness continued and and the opportunities grew and the the willingness to show up and and participate and be part of of my own story and the stories of others around me became just flourished, if you will.

And so I mean here we are now and I I credit everything to that moment in that field because the the work that I do in storytelling and creatively and so forth is me doing my best to just give to the universe what I think is somehow possessed of me but maybe even doesn't belong to me. I'm trying to return it if you will. So the energy that that in the wellness that I found I'm trying to just give back. And that's a different place than how I used to live, which was very much taking and hustling and stealing and and self-centeredness and all of that that other sort of lost business was replaced with something that had so much meaning and motivation to it that

I've just been riding that train the whole way. And it's not been easy. Life's been hard. I mean, there's a lot of like difficulty, of course, in life. It's not perfect and so forth. But my willingness to to move forward and and to continue to participate is something that has remained pretty steady. >> Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. Have you I'm curious. Have you come to believe that the your vision when you were at your sickest and then the DTS that followed and still not picking up was a spiritual experience even though you didn't have that belief then? Have you grown into that? Do you see it as a spiritual vision? Yeah, I I mean I don't

know if if I understand the term spiritual necessarily as maybe others do. I do believe that that we have a life within us that yearns to be more, if you will. And that was something that a lot of self-loathing, hatred for the world around me, impatience, a lot of sort of the blocking energy, if you will, were things that were just dominating my my thinking and my life. And in that moment, the the vision of who I wanted to be just became really, really loud. And it got turned up to 11, if you will. And I've not been able to turn it down. I mean, I I can't I can't like shut it off. It just it won't let me go. And that's if you want to call that spiritual or if you want to call

that some kind of purpose or identity in that way, then maybe that's that's what it is. I feel like I caught the wave and the other surfers are around me and I'm like, "Oh, this is what this experience is supposed to be like." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think I'm going to stay on this wave. Man, here's the thing. I try not to overthink it. I I really, for me, sobriety's, you know, you hear that over and over again in sobriety is like keep it simple, right? And so that's if anything is my motto. that is that is is like top of the line because I can start, you know, I can really run with it. But in terms of of where I think I need to be and what I need to be

reminding myself is like just simple. Let's let's do simple instead of where your head wants to go with it. And let's see what happens, man. Let's let's try the thing. Let's let's participate in the day and at the end of the day, we'll assess. How about that? And so, you know what? All of those practices, all of that that thinking and so forth has become really ingrained with how I engage with the world as well. And it's what I try and do with film working. You know, the social work side of it was years of working in higher education. I served in like what one might call a life coach or an academic coach or we we weren't necessarily advisers because it

wasn't just you need to take this class, this class, and this class. We were literally social workers in the higher education environment sitting with students and saying, "I see you telling me this, but but your your your mannerisms and so forth are communicating something else. Let's talk about that a little bit." And having a student be like, "Yeah, you know, it's like, okay, so here's what's going on with my mom. Here's what's happening with my dad. Here's what's happening with me financially." Is like, "Okay, now we're into it, man. Now we're talking about the stuff that is either allowing you or not allowing you to be an effective student. let's work on that

stuff so you can be successful in this space. And that's been the last six years of my life is working in that space. And of course, every day waking up like going, is this real? I mean, is this like how how is it that I'm in this space doing this now? And like working to serve other people in a way that that benefits them is equally rewarding for myself. even though there's not like not some deep monetary exchange happening, it is rewarding to see other people succeed. And I think that that's that's what I want to do with film making. If we're to bring it all back to a return to the blanket that this this story is like I mean I've been thinking about

this a lot lately is all throughout life and through the drinking and up until that point even into the school and getting well was was not having any awareness or real critical recognition that my lived experience and story had some value and some importance. And when I started when we started kind of into this documentary about pre-equa adoption and everything, I was like, "Holy smokes." And people more importantly, people's response to it was so purposed in a way that I had never even conceived. And so then I sit back and I'm like, and it's not about me necessarily. It's just I have an experience that communicates with other people. And should I sit on it? Is there

should I kick myself about it? Should I be self-conscious? I think we got that question when I was in Missoula and you and I were sitting in that panel together. That was that was kind of part of the thinking in that space. So to to to kind of wrap it all together was like the all of that has culminated into this sense of purpose in how I write and how I communicate, how I see myself as participatory, maybe not necessarily the under the spotlight, but more hey let's all come together like on common ground if you will. And that's what I want the documentary work to convey.

>> Great. Okay, let's get into this other transformational story that you lived and lived and your culture and identity. >> So tell us how you grew up, what happened that got you there, and then what happened that changed your life once again. And really, this is the topic of your film Return to the Blanket. >> Yeah. So that's that we're really going to hit the synopsis here. >> Joseph, what happened to you?

>> So in the early '7s, I was born 1971. Black feet baby and black feet country born to indigenous parents black feet my mother was creoan you know part of the black feet diaspora etc. dad was was also black feet. And it was at a time where we had kind of enter as a nation had kind of entered into this phase of like, okay, boarding schools are like no longer it's we we're being told we're doing a bad thing, so we're going to kind of change it up. But from early early colonialism, I'm and I'm not trying to run like an anti-white narrative here at all. I want to like really put that out there. the it's it's a it's such a like complex story, if you will, but there

was a movement and there's long been a movement of the government where Native American people were termed the Indian problem. What do we do with these people? I mean, it's like we're on their land. We're we don't think we're taking it. They're giving it up. Kind of a however was explained to oneself. We're as as individuals, we're just sort of caught up in the whirlwind of all that development and and intention. And at the time it was like, well, boarding schools, yeah, okay, we get it. It's a little icky, but we still need to to assimilate indigenous people into the larger sort of western colonial thinking. How do we do that? And so the various religious organizations worked

with the US government and were tasked with aiding in getting persons like myself adopted from these indigenous families out into white families into these non-indigenous families, these sort of western descended, western European descended families to help inculcate us into the lifestyle, the thinking, the the the internal sense of self and so forth that we just become a lot more sympatico if you will. I think that was that's the summary if you will.

That's sort of the the quick explanation of of really kind of what was going on. And my brothers and my brothers and sisters and I were subjected to that. So I have two older sisters, an older brother that were adopted into different families. And then my brother JP and I were adopted together into the Grady family. And that's we were we were told stories as kids as to why that had happened. But it was always enobled with your mom, you know, she she was sick and and she was dying and you had to be we saved you like the the the church saved you and we we took you out of that that unfortunate moment and we gave you a home, which they did. They they opened

up their their home to us and so forth. And I don't know necessarily what they were told, but with that said, that that's kind of the mechanism, if you will, of of this wave of assimilation. And that's really what the film touches on. And in Canada, they called it the scoop era. Here, it was it was just predicated as Indian child removal and assimilation. And there was it was prevalent. I mean, if you if you listen to the stories in tribal lands or in Indian country, it's we we we hid the kids when the when the government cars pulled up because they were coming for our children and so we had to hide the kids and the the valuation that was placed on that those circumstances was

is there running water? Are you are you a good enough environment to be raising a child? There's squalor. There's poverty. how do you expect to bring this kid up in in in a healthy reasonable way where they're going to succeed in the world? So, there was there was definitely that that western colonial bias that was coming into these spaces and seeing unfit mothers, unfit households where we we predate toilets and running water and you know, some of the most perfect technology was the tepee to to live in some of the environments of of the Highline and so forth. it is the it is the house that you need there. So, you know, we were trans trying to transition into those

kinds of living spaces, but then the sweeping movement that came in was you're unfit and this is an unfit environment and we're going to have to remove your kids and we're going to give them greater opportunity, which was often met with people from the family, some saying this is a good thing. Some of the family saying what this they they just stole our kids, right? So, there was a mixed bag there as well. And you can still even get that a lot of that variance, you know, even into today and how people like interpret the world from those communities. So with that said, that was the sort of the origins of the story was like we were adopted out as as

young kids as part of this pre-qua assimilation movement for kids. My brother and I were adopted together. My oldest brother was adopted to a family up in I think it was Conrad and then we have two sisters that were were also adopted out and we now have awareness of that because we're adults and we're doing the research and so forth and that's going to be part of this film but the it wasn't just our story and here we are part of it and when you're on the lived side of that as the the baby adopted the story the story I got from my parents was you know that my mother had died when when I was just a baby, we had to be removed, sickness, etc., etc., and

and good for us. Well, through the research of this film, my mother lived into the 80s >> and there was family there, and there was opportunity to have been raised in my indigenous environments with with the cultural stories and the the the all of the the elements of of of what what identity comes from in those spaces. And I didn't have that. I didn't I didn't have any of that growing up. But there was nothing to miss either other than just sort of the hints you get along the way. And one of the first essays I wrote in college was I had to go to school to learn that I was brown because here I am in an environment where other kids after school are running to their parents who

are picking them up from school and I'm looking at my parents and I'm like my mommy and daddy don't look like me. And that's like a that's a that's a pretty significant breach of understanding of the world. And so that's really where it started was learning and then asking questions why, you know, why were we adopted? What what where do we come from? How come we weren't part of those families and so forth? And just getting these, you know, very sort of neat, clean, presentable to make it okay to enobilize it in some way. And of course, it wasn't until we were much older that we started learning about IQUA and pre-Iqua adoption and and Indian child removal and assimilation

and all that other business. And and so the identity piece for me was basically I grew up a white kid in white neighborhoods in white suburban America having to face the fact that I was brown. And the the man who raised me is black Irish. He's he's got that dark sort of peppery hair and you know like hazel eyes and very much the Irishman and that's that's who raised us. So that's the identity that we grew up with is this Catholic Irish upbringing and that's what's informed me throughout my life and how I speak. You know, again, how I think of language, uh, how I interact and engage and communicate with the world that constantly reminds me that I'm brown through either you're

intimidating or we don't know if we trust you or I'm going to make a mistake talking to you. I'm going to say the wrong thing, I'm going to offend you, brown man, because I don't know enough about you or your people. And I'm like, what? I'm just me. What are you talking about? And then getting that those little bits of nuance along the way. Looney Tunes and how Native Americans are portrayed in in media and the western and from Grizzly Adams to to Looney Tunes, right? It was it was then me grappling with something that I started realizing I'm supposed to know this. I'm supposed to have a connection to this. And as I got older and moving to these various communities that we

lived in, meeting other indigenous people who did grow up in their cultural community. And that's where I started realizing it's like I don't I don't have any way to identify with that. I don't have any that piece is gone. That opportunity has that ship has sailed in terms of growing up with that. Right? And I was watching other people speak their languages, have their cultural identities up in Lummy country in the Northwest, hearing people talk about the salmon and salmon woman and and all of these other like characters and identities that I was like and then asking me to like give them the answers on on where I come from. And when I was in in grade school, we were at this sort

of like weekend summer camp type thing that the school took us on. It was a public school. And so we went to this camp and we stayed in these cabins and so forth and we were out on a hike. I remember my teacher and no joke, this is his name, Mr. Chups. He was he was such a great guy and he was so kind to me and he was so nice and just always seemed to be like trying to reach the students, right? And this this eagle or hawk flies over, right, visible to us and everybody's like, "Oh, look. It's, you know, it's wildlife." And he leans down and he looks at me and he says, "What does it mean? What does it mean to you and your people when the hawk flies over

in the afternoon? And I'm like looking around like, wait, what? What do you mean? It's a hawk, dude. I don't What are you asking me? I walked away from that experience. It was very awkward. And I walked away from and I knew he meant well, right? Because he just was a genuinely wonderful person. I walked [clears throat] away from that experience like deeply embarrassed because I didn't really know and I didn't know if there if there was a way to respond to that from my culture. And so it little experiences like that throughout my life have been reminders that I did not grow up in that environment and I don't have a connection to that identity. And if you

want to fast forward just to the like where the film is now, our director is Black Feet >> Amanda >> Amanda Bear Medicine and she is and I met her like working in film and and sort of us doing some teaching stuff together and some promotion of some PA courses and getting like young indigenous people into the film industry. And I remember like one of our first times working together, I was like, I'm thinking about making this film and I think you'd be great. I really would like to work together with you. And that ended up developing developing into her eventually like taking the reigns on directing. And so here you've got this this Black Feet woman person from raised within the

culture raised within an understanding of the language and the spiritual identities and the selfidentity and where we come from and all that other stuff to family to other people that look like her, right? To working with this guy who like has never had that. And so it's interesting when you see her talking on stage, she grieavves that. She like actively grieves that when she's on stage because she feels for individuals who were robbed of that opportunity. And I think even equally so when I talk about that spiritual experience that hallucination that I had that food and deprivated hallucination to her is a a a very powerful spiritual moment. And I don't I'm robbed of the

opportunity of seeing that way because of how I was raised. And so her her participation and sort of guidance in this storytelling process behind the camera is so important because she's she's home. She's the place that I'm returning. And that comes through in the presentation of the film and the places we went and to that moment in the in the house in those moments in the house felt so purposed from the moment I got sober to that moment sitting on that couch that this is exactly where I was intended to go and be and that that's if you want to talk about spiritual then then maybe that's it. It was world destroying. It was it was world building. It was calamitous. It was

overwhelming. I was exploding on the inside and I was having this very real lived experience and I was just sitting there trying to keep my cool, right? Because there's cameras running and I'm sitting there and I'm I'm very much trying to have this lived experience but also not trying to be the center of the focus of of the shot because Barbie definitely was really where we wanted our focus to be. And so it was a it was a a full circle moment there to be making this film to be telling this story and to be having that experience and that engagement in that moment was deeply profound.

>> What happened to you as a result of telling your story through the search of your identity and culture in vis in visiting the Black Feet Reservation and sitting with Barbie? How did the narrative shift your own narrative shift from that experience of sharing your narrative? >> I'll say it this way too. It was very similar to that to that to that release business. I walked away from that feeling like I had done it done what I had set out to do but at the same time was at the very beginning of the next chapter right and so I again was like let's keep going I wanted this I achieved it now what's next let's let's explore this further and but there was a

completeness to it as well I walked away from that like with a lot of questions but at the same time was like and I don't know if you noticed that if you look at that part of the film I look like the man standing next to me. I mean, I we we look alike and you know, from the shape of our heads to our stature to the the other faces in that space and I've never had that experience in my life. I've never been in a family photo where I look like the people around me other than my brother JP. and to be in a immersed in a setting where it was not only that they look like me, but we were familial just kind of satisfied the the need, if you will. And even though it it very much felt like a

start of something and has been, it felt like I'd kind of arrived a little bit. And I when I look at that image, when I see that shot of the us kind of standing side by side, it always brings me to tears because I'm like, that's that's where I did not grow up. But that's what I found. And so, you know, it's sort of in the conclusion of the movie is of course like, you know, just finding sort of the whole person, if you will, through that journey. That's that really is is how I was feeling in those moments was like a sense of completeness that I had never gotten before in that that hole that I was trying to fill with booze and alcohol. It didn't have the

the potency. It was like it was back there, not in front of me. And so, that's what that moment did for me. And I think that that's really what this journey is about. That's what I'd hoped for myself out of this. I never we never could have planned that I don't think. And then what I have found I think why we want to produce this into a larger documentary to include my brother as well in that story is to to because it is both of our stories as well as the other siblings is to continue to sort of paint that picture for the audience. And what we found even at that session was that people really identify with what's being communicated in that film even if

they aren't indigenous. And there were people that who came up to me at the reception who were like, "I was adopted as a kid and I'm from a white family and I was adopted into a white family and I still had many of the same struggles, if you will, and and they found a a connectiveness, a connective tissue, if you will, in that story that like so I can I can be proactive. I can I can learn. I can I can reach out or not, you know? I mean, that's the other part of it, too, is like this is not everyone's journey." And it's there's there's a lot of unknowns. And so I think, you know, when people look at from adopted positions or positionality and they go

on find family, it's not always sunny. It's not always the nice picture, but it answers a question. I mean, it it very deeply answers a question. And it's not looking to the past. It's filling in the blanks. And that's not always a pretty picture, but it can it can really lend to us finding our own sense of purpose and meaning in the world that it's like, okay, I'm ready to move forward. I'm ready to move forward to what whatever comes next. I've I've asked the question. I've gotten the answer. Let's let's see what comes next. And I will say that that that my story thus far has been unbelievably beautiful despite the fact of all of the the hardship and the

challenge and the alcoholism and all of that other business that came along with it. It's culminated I think into what is a really lovely story and I hope it's one that touches people and you know we were talking about language earlier. I hope the language of this film is is the kind of thing that that reaches a lot of people to their hearts. cultural rec reclamation, belonging, healing after separation, alcoholism, being adopted by the Gradies, growing up in a white Irish Catholic culture as a brown person, not understanding that even when your teacher says, "What's the meaning of the hawk to your people?" And you're like, "What do you mean my Irish Catholic

people? All of this, your your ultimate bottom and then rising out of the ashes and staying sober a day at a time, telling your story, finding your people, getting back on the land, all of it. If you had a magic wand and you were able to rewrite your story, would you? Why or why not? >> I don't there. I think there's there's a wish that exists in every child's heart that their family was was the family they'd always hoped for.

And despite where I come from, what I've learned in life is everybody's got messed up family. Everyone's got a a challenge in life through those through those familial journeys together or apart. And so I don't I think some some part childlike part of me was like has this wish on a star that, you know, it's like we're going to reverse the clock and I'm going to I'm going to grow up within that community and I'm going to be I'm going to learn my language. I'm going to learn about these cultural stories from childhood up. So, they're part of my my fabric. That's I think some of that lives maybe back here. But if I were to really think about it, you know, there's

there's purpose in the stories that we that we live with. And I think now as I'm as I'm writing this and telling this, I realize that I'm reaching other people who have a similar experience and that that this is the purpose. This is this is the reason. This is the this is the path that I was given. And there's a story of I think he's a figure called Nanabouju. Some of my fellow students in in our NAS courses were calling me Nanabouju because Nanabou goes on this journey outside of his community. and he finds these other tribes and nations and lives with them for a while and goes over here and learns from these people and learns from these people and then

eventually returns to his people and embeds this learned knowledge across the way. And I'm not saying that that's necessarily where where I feel like, you know, in this sort of grand scheme things are going, but the those those little sort of like names and and connecting to to my culture and kind of feeling this, yeah, I guess that is a little bit of of who I am really makes me feel like I'm I'm right where I need to be. There was to be a wand. I think it would be less of a struggle with the self-awareness. I and you know I look at the the the Irishman who raised me who had a kid coming home to him who would get in these racialized circumstances

that he didn't have the answer to. And I realized that that was kind of a shared experience between us. We didn't really know what to do with this stuff, but we just did our best. And more importantly, the the path to wellness has been finding a purpose in in the cards you're dealt. And I honestly at this point I'm not sure I'd have it any other way because the pain that I bring with me is sort of the the the learning tool that has become very potent in my life. It's become it's grounding me in ways that I can connect to things that a lot of people are like I've never thought about that in the world and I think I need to think about that more. It's like yeah

it's keep it simple. >> Cultural separation and identity. Did you love the Grady's growing up? And does that have anything to do with actually what you're talking about? >> Yeah. So I'm a Grady. I I don't I don't get to go to Ireland and sit down with the Irish people and be like, "Look how freaking Irish I am, folks." But I grew up with with some of that story, if you will. That's the culture and the story that I grew up with, even though I couldn't fully identify with it. Right.

The the people who raised me were deeply loving and were also of a critical eye that has really sort of helped shape and inform my ability to explore the world and how I ask questions. And that's Grady all the way through. And there's an entitlement to it for sure. There's a sense of privilege in there as well, especially with the ways and the places that I grew up. And some of the environments and the opportunities I had in that space were definitely privileges. That said, I I in that respect, I don't think I missed because I had a very what some might call a very blessed life. I never wanted for food. I never wondered where my next meal was

coming from. There was never a question of pay the rent. I grew up in owned houses in neighborhoods with other kids that I was playing with, black, brown, white, what have you. So, the I'm I'm very much of my upbringing with a yearning to be more. And I think the yearning to be more, learn to be satisfied with who I am. And that's what's come through this journey is like I am enough. I I I am totally enough.

And and I've I I get to be part of what comes next. And I get to help build that. I get to help be part of the the construction of that that narrative and the participation in those relationships. I had to get through alcoholism. I had to get through the struggles. I had to get through the identity fights and everything with myself to get to a place where I was finally open to receive what might be referred to as the universe. And I've been internally eternally grateful for for what I've gotten out of it. And I mean each day that I wake up, especially with how I used to drink, there are days where I wake up and I'm like I'm still here. amazing that that wasn't really in

the cards before, but here we are. So, tremendous gratitude and I think in terms of like how I connect with the tribe and the Black Feet people, the Korea Cineaboine is is is waiting to happen. And that's that's the next part of the journey is like probably spending the rest of my life learning and and trying to be part of of some of that space as well in a way that doesn't yearn for a kind of nostalgia that that that isn't that isn't forthcoming that it wasn't an authentic part of my own story. I've never wanted to in my life wear the feathers or grow the hair long or or do that stuff as a makeup or a costume. I've always wanted it to be through the process of knowing and and

relating. But, you know, the closer I get to these spaces, the more I get imbued with, you saw the medallion that I was wearing in the in like some of the hats and all of this stuff is being incorporated, but it's happening through relationships that I have with indigenous people as opposed to I'm going to go out and get myself some some Pendleton and I'm going to get myself some of this other stuff and man, I'm really going to be native now. No, it's it it really is like finding the the commonalities with my indigenous brothers and sisters and cousins and so forth and learning the language and being like, "Oh, that's how you see the world." Okay. I I I'm I'm getting a

better understanding for that. And even though that that's not so imbued in the fabric of how I was raised, it's something that I'm making space for. And thankfully enough, those places are making space for me as well. And so I I I couldn't have, I think, asked for a better outcome. It's the merging of the two identities and what I always thought was going to be a clash has become just building on the person that I am. And again, keep it simple, right?

>> Love the full integration. Since you're helping by sharing your story with me, write the book on narrative intelligence. >> You got to define what narrative intelligence means. What what definition would you assign it? Narrative intelligence is not far off from cultural humility and is developing a an understanding and a need for cultural humility practice which this world is not long on right now. There's a lot of know-it-alls. There's a lot of like very sort of absolute sort of side taking and so forth as opposed to being a learning growing entity within your environment.

There's a lot of people who who want to tell you that they know as opposed to being willing to say, "I don't know and I'm not certain and I'd like to know more." And so that's cultural humility practice is is the willingness and the ability to set yourself aside and become a student of a much larger world. And we've gotten away from that. And and my my own lived experience is has required that for me to get where I was going.

And if you want to see the the exact opposite of that, look at me when I was a drunk >> because that was me trying to control something that I had no control over. So yeah, be a student of humility. Build humility into your heart and know that you've got a lot of a lot to learn all of us. And so that's I think that's the footing I try and put forward because it keeps me from getting high on my own supply so to speak. you know, as as we get into these spaces where we're like in public speaking spaces and we're we're seen as like wisdom holders and and like teachers and and are learned and so forth, we get high on our own supply. I mean, we can start like really

believing our own thing. And I want to be a student of the audience. I want to be a student of the relationships. I want to be a student of my own experience. I want to be open to what comes next. And if I already got all the answers, then what's the need for all of that? I've given up that illusion, I think. And even the people that may seem abrasive or threatening to me, like maybe even like racially like have a a distrust or a dislike, they they too are are my family. And I just watched Winter in the Blood that weekend that we were that we were all down there at the James Welsh Lit Festival. And there's a there's a statement in that film by

Sagenoth Grant who's was the actor who's playing the old man who says we all have the blood of our enemies in our veins. Meaning that we are all family that we are all of this human story and that we are not so separated by any of those identifiers that were closer to being alike than we are different. And it's something I'm I'm really trying to place a lot more faith in. It it helps it helps lighten my heart for sure. It helps me participate in a world that maybe is like sometimes less kind and allows me to find humanness even in the people that maybe are most challenging to to love. And I find that when I'm able to do that, I live lighter. I just

I live less encumbered. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you. Actually, that >> I know people are going to want to connect with you after hearing your story. How might they reach out to you? My presentation side is represented through Instagram. >> Okay, Joseph, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your story, your transformation, your sobriety, your experience, strength and hope with us today.

>> Well, thanks for liking my movie. I mean, that really has sort of helped set us on a path and it it helped answer some question and maybe even some some help validate us in a way that at the time we really needed it and is has really helped propel us in the direction that we're going. So, thank you. >> My pleasure. Before we close, here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Joseph taught me that reclaiming a story is not the same as erasing the life that came before it. His journey brings together sobriety, adoption, cultural separation, belonging, and the slow integration of identities he once thought would

conflict. He also gave us an essential definition. Narrative intelligence requires cultural humility. And now [music] I want to invite you into the inquiry. What's your inque? You can take the narrative quotient assessment at story keys.co. Subscribe to 100 stories and follow the series on YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts. Joseph, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. It changed my look.