Cheri Williams

Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm Paige Williams. Come along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence by learning from 100 thinkers, creators, researchers, leaders, [music] people whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together, we are exploring a question at the center of how we become who we are. That question is, how malleable are the stories that we live by? And what does it take to change [music] one? Across these conversations, we're examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity, and the human capacities that allow us to recognize, [music] question, revise, and live beyond them.

What I learn through this series will help shape the field of narrative intelligence and the foundational book that I'm writing about it. This is 100 Stories. Today, I'm speaking with Sherry Williams, who is the co-founder of Imagination Factory. Their mission is to catalyze and equip innovation in the child welfare sector. Welcome to the show. Glad to have you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Paige. Let me to kick us off with the question I ask everyone, which is, tell us about the work that has most shaped how you see yourself and the world. No small question that we start with.

>> seriously. Wow. >> The work that has most changed or shifted how I see myself and the world. You know, it's interesting. So, I've worked in child welfare a very long time, like almost my whole career. And when I first got into child welfare, I thought I was just noble swooping in and saving kids from really bad circumstances. And probably about 10 years ago, I started having this great awakening, really, of wait, you know, I have been in this this sector long enough to see so many broken places. And I started realizing saviorism is the wrong mindset to be living from in this work. A, because of who it centers and who it doesn't center, right? And B, because the system

I've just seen the system become really oppressive to families and and not really offer families the help they need. And so I've learned about myself from that place of I would say high ego, of feeling like I'm just doing such noble work, to realizing like, oh, while there is noble work out there, I realized I was actually contributing to the harm of families. And not only was I contributing to harm, I was actually benefiting from it through my career.

So, you know, there's a there's a short little easy answer for your tiny little easy question. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big answer. And I want to dig into that more, but first I want to ask you to tell me about one of the most transformative moments from your life. >> I did not have a super easy upbringing. And so for those people who are aware of the ACEs or adverse childhood experiences, I have a really high ACE score. I've lived through a lot in my life. Fortunately, I also had a lot of resilience factors in my life. And so I am where I am. Um and I'm so grateful for that in my life. And so with that backdrop, I'll say that in 2018, I attended a 2 and 1/2 day intensive

workshop on anti-racism. And I was working at a faith-based organization at the time. And this anti-racism curriculum was delivered from a faith perspective as well. But that experience completely rocked my world. That was a huge hugely transformative experience for me because it just flipped my mindset on its head about the work that I had been doing in that mindset that I mentioned earlier like coming in from a point of saviorism versus, you know, how how the system the child welfare system can be oppressive and again my role in that. So that was just a true the really a huge turning point in my own learning and understanding and ultimately kind of

shift in my mission in the world. >> Yeah. So what what was it about that moment that shifted the way you thought and what was the story you told yourself before that moment and then the story you had to live from moving forward that you could like it was almost like the veil was lifted and then you could never not unsee what you saw. Tell me about that. >> Yeah. So we in this in this anti-racism experience, we walked through this activity called the center and borderlands and basically we kind of mapped, you know, like who is centered in our organizations, you know, like who holds the power, who has the resources of all of those people really are in the

center, right? But when you look on the borderlands or the people who are out on the fringes, those are the people without much power, without the resources, you know, who really need the help from the people who are quote-unquote in the center, right? But the experience kind of flipped that on its head of, you know, the people in the borderlands, they know often know what they need. They have amazing community built and and, you know, along the fringes. But the but systems, child welfare systems specifically in my experience, tends to try to bring those people from the borderlands and bring them into the center where the power and the resources and such are. That doesn't

necessarily mean that's where they want to come. And so that was the part that really kind of undid me. And the story I was telling myself before was that I'm doing great work in the world. And the story I told myself after I went through tears, like sobbing at the end of this specific activity and talking with a friend and saying, "Has my whole life been a sham? Like has my work for over 20 years just been not at all what I thought it was? And then what do I do with that?" And so it was super disorienting to me to go from through such a major shift of the story I was telling myself before to the story I was sitting in after this experience.

>> And then how did your life change post that experience? >> I I nearly had an unquenchable thirst for new knowledge and new perspectives. One of the stops was Mount Rushmore. Now mind you, I had just come off this anti-racism training. And so I'm learning the whole like alternative narrative, you know, around, you know, the Native Americans and their sacred mountain and ultimately, you know, how people came and not only took over that mountain, but then, you know, carved the faces of the people who had taken over that mountain, you know, on the indigenous sacred mountain. And so just walking out of of that experience and walking into something like that, I just

started seeing the world very differently. And so my work my work was the same. Like I just started questioning everything. I started questioning all the assumptions that I had built my career on. And so it looked like a lot of just grappling, grappling with new perspectives like on the daily. And it was really uncomfortable. >> Yeah. Yeah. What story do you think what is the general story about families that child welfare operates from?

>> Such a great question. The child welfare system operates from an assumption that families are bad. They hurt their children. They don't care about their children. They don't love their children, and they're intentionally abusing or neglecting their children. Therefore, the system is set up as the savior, right? To come in and rescue these poor children who need to be rescued from their families. And so, that that was the assumption that that I kind of generally subscribed to when I came into the system as a young 24-year-old and just started learning like the truths that the system told itself.

>> Yeah. >> Oh. >> What story would child welfare have to stop believing for a genuinely different system that heals families, I would say, believe to become possible? >> How would the story have to change? The story that I have experienced the system telling itself about, you know, being there to save and rescue and, you know, give kids a better life, that story the the system would have to start embracing kids don't always have a better life once the child welfare system gets involved. I started realizing years ago when I was an investigator in the system, I removed a lot of kids and and placed them in foster care and years later when I started working outside of

investigations but inside the foster care care realm, I actually realized some of those kids I had removed never went home, their parents' rights ended up terminated, and they stayed in foster care until they turned 18, and they never had a family. And I started asking myself, are those kids really better off? Are they really better off because I removed them from their family? And my answer to myself was, I don't think so.

And so, I believe the system would have to grapple with that and realize like, we're not always doing a great job for kids. They're not always better off when we intervene. >> Mhm. Yeah. What happens when lived experience, like you're talking about, contradicts the story an institution has already decided is true? >> Gosh, Paige, I've seen this throughout my career and I've been guilty of doing it, right? So, if you think about when parents when parents are involved with the child welfare system, it's it's at no request of their own. You know, parents aren't coming and saying, "Hey, you know, can you can you remove my kids for me and help me get my act together?"

No, they're they're not coming in that regard. It is the services that the child welfare system provides are really kind of thrust upon families. And so, when you when you truly center lived experience, you get to hear about the human side of the impact of the system. And that's not very convenient to people who are overwhelmed with workload, and the system doesn't allow time and space to embrace humanity, whether that's the humanity of the people whose lives were impacted, or even our own humanity in the overworking and the stress and the you know, the the constant just dysregulation of our nervous systems from working inside of such a highly

traumatizing system. >> What has to shift in order to change lived experience into a better outcome? What has to shift? >> Power. Power and resources in my experience. The child welfare system really holds just about all the power over families. The system, the judge, the courts, the caseworkers, they determine when a family has done enough. You know, have they have they met the the burden that they need to to get their kids back? And I'll be honest, some of the some of those requirements that are set, now that I've been a parent and I have three teenagers of my own, I'm like, man, sometimes I might be hard-pressed to meet some of these, and I have education

and resources. And so, what has to shift? There has to be a shift in power where the child welfare system brings itself down to its own humanity, to the humanity of the people within the system so that we can look eye to eye and embrace the humanity of the people that that system is seeking to serve, right? And then resources, if all of the resources are held at as at the system level, then the system is doling out resources as they see fit, right? And we're not really allowing space for power and voice and access to those resources to the people who really know most what they need to help keep their families safe and stable and well.

>> Yeah, who currently holds the power to decide which story about a family becomes the official story of the family? >> Fascinating. Fascinating. I would love to say that each family holds their own story, and in and in a small regard they do, like in their own circle of influence, right? But I've been in so many rooms, Paige, where we as the professionals are telling the story from a stage, and maybe we even have, you know, a lived expert coming along to share their story from the stage, but it is largely the people in power who are shaping that narrative and owning the story and telling the story of families in a way that honestly benefits the system and

the players in the system, right? So. >> Yeah, and for people who aren't so familiar with this the child welfare system, will you explain how holding a family's narrative in a negative light benefits the child welfare system in America? >> Yeah. So, holding a family's story in a negative light just perpetuates that kids are in danger, we must save them, we need your help, donate your money to our organization. And so, what it does is it brings more resources into the organization or the system or the people who are holding the power for them to wield as they see fit. Right? So, so the holder of the story is really like leverage increasing that gap in power

between the family who's living their reality and the people with the power and the resources who are telling the story. And the And it keeps going like this as it stands now. >> And we know when we look at the child welfare system that it's full of people like us. And so, my my curiosity is, why is it so hard for people inside the system to imagine something beyond the system that they already know, get burnout by, leave, check out? Why Why is it so hard to imagine a system that actually benefits families?

>> Well, let me tell you. >> there, but why isn't everyone getting there? >> Yeah. First of all, it is a highly like high-risk sector. We're not making widgets. There are children who are horrifically abused in the world, and there are children who are murdered by parents or caregivers. Like, it just happens, you know? And so, that is everyone's worst fear, and so fear motivates the child welfare system.

And it is embedded in every nook and cranny of the child welfare system. And so, what that does, it it it has birthed and created this constant iteration of rules and regulations to reduce risk to children. However, in my experience and learning over the years, I actually saw a lot of the rules and regulations reducing risk for the organizations responsible for protecting kids. Right?

And so that the fear throughout and all of the rules and regulations and the compliance mindset that's just required from federal regulation and state regulation and county regulation. I mean, there's just so much that the the sector tends to retain people who are really compliance minded and let me make sure I'm doing things according to the rules. And if you're so focused on doing things according to the rules, it doesn't leave space for imagination and creativity and innovation and imagining that there could be a totally new and different way, right?

>> So if you got to wave a magic wand and Sherry Williams rewrote the rules and rewrote the story of child welfare, what would it look like? What's a more idealistic vision for child welfare? Put a pause on all of that kind of put the whole system over to the side, let it continue doing what it does, and create a whole new container built on lived expertise, people who have been there, done that, lived in in those really hard spaces with their families and children, and people who are big dreamers and know enough about child welfare to come in and come alongside and share power and and know enough to to identify and bring in resources and build just a totally new

way of how society can come around vulnerable kids and families. >> Yeah. What do you think has to happen to make that vision come to life? >> Again, I think it goes back to the mindset of the people running the people running the system and let me just say again, you already said it. The system is made up of some incredible individuals. It's just the structure of the system that locks people in so hard just the status quo of how things how things have to go, right? But what would have to shift? The people in that system would have to really start, I would say, opening our eyes to the real harm that happens in that system. Yes, some good comes for but there's a lot of harm that

just goes unacknowledged by the system and we would have to start really honestly acknowledging that harm in order to shift and even realize something new and different is needed. >> like your anti-racism conference that changed you? Once you name it and understand it, then you can't unsee it and so change happens automatically? >> Yes. And systems change starts with me. That is something we say at Imagination Factory.

That is something that my co-founder, Matt Anderson, has coined. You know, systems change starts with me and there's all sorts of research that backs that up. You know, the water of systems change produced by FSG and many other publications like systems change will only be sustainable if I hold up the mirror instead of holding up the lens, the mic the micro you know, the the microscopic lens to look at everyone else and what they're doing and what their problems are. What if I held up a mirror instead and said, "What am I doing?

What am I doing that's contributing to you know, bad outcomes for kids and families? Because the change has to start within me and that has to be a an individual shift that then starts becoming collective. >> What do you think it takes for a person to change in that way? >> I think you have to have a growth mindset. I think it's absolutely takes a growth mindset meaning people can reflect on their own beliefs and hold the capacity to change our minds about something. If people who have a fixed mindset like this is true, it will always be true, it can never not be true, it's really hard to bring change through that mindset. Versus, you know, I believe this is true but I'm willing

to hold this out here and meet other people and hear other stories and open myself to actually absorb other stories that might differ from my own and then reflect on my beliefs and then say, "Oh, I think some changes needed here." >> I just had a and I wonder, you started this conversation stating that you had a high ACE score. Do you think that gives you a growth mindset more than people who maybe have a lower score?

>> I've never thought about that. >> I've never been asked that question, Paige. That is a great question. And at the end of the day, yes. Yes, I do. Because when you were when you come from hard places, which a lot of the children and families that the child welfare system serves do come from hard places, and news flash, let me tell you, a lot of the parents that the child welfare system is working with were children in the system as well. And so, it's like, where's that magical line when they go from being the vulnerable youth into, you know, the offending parent, you know, I don't like that word. That's why I'm using my air quotes there. But, I

think when people, myself included, when we do come from hard places, like we have to A, know how to survive in really creative ways, right? And B, if we're going to make something good out of really hard things, we have to be able to reframe things, look at things different ways, and really reflect and and critically think about how we want to move in the world. So, yes. I think that is a great point. I will say, when I was younger and I came into this this work, there was all sorts of my own stuff that was showing up in the work, including that saviorism, right? And so, it was only through like 20-plus years of my own work and therapy and you know,

just kind of processing through all of that to get to the place where that doesn't bleed over into my work now. And so, helpers, the helpers, the helping professions tend to draw in people who come from hard places, right? Because when we come out of it, then we want to be a part of the help. And so, that's just a very interesting dynamic that I think we have to be aware of and honor and really be mindful of how we work through our own stuff, so we can truly work in service of people instead of systems.

>> Right. What have you seen happen to people who when when you've centered lived experience and you've seen someone be given the power to not only well, to tell their story, but also like make decisions based on the center of power. How have you seen their lives changed as a result? >> I will say I have seen I'm thinking of of one mom in particular. I saw when she had the ability to tell her own story in the way that maintained her humanity and her dignity and her wholeness, her confidence changed, the way she moved in the world changed, meaning she knew she wasn't broken, she knew she had hard circumstances to work through and she had hard decisions that she had to make,

but she was not broken, you know? And and that just fundamentally shifted how she moved in the world and how she valued her own perspective. And it she grew to the point where she was able to show up in rooms and stand her ground and not shrink because she thought she was less than some of some of the other folks who might be sitting across the table from her. >> It's awesome. Have you seen people begin acting toward a better or a a different future before they have evidence that that future was even possible? Like did they start kind of Yeah.

>> Absolutely. So, I love to think about the fact that years and years ago, light we lit our homes by candlelight. Now, do we think someone already knew how electricity was going to power lights that we can turn on? It's happened throughout human history. We've gone from cavemen and women drawing on walls to having a cell phone in our pocket and computers and zooming with people around the world. And so, of course it's possible. So, let's talk about Imagination Factory. Okay.

>> And what your mission is, cuz that feels very in alignment. >> Well, you know, it is. And so, this big awakening and kind of identity shift, I'll say, helped me find my people, get in community with those people, build extremely trusting relationships with those people. And two of those people for me were Matt Anderson and Cornelia Crenshaw, who are the other two co-founders of Imagination Factory. And once we came together and all three of us had had very disorienting, like disillusioning experiences within the system. And once we came together and we realized A, we're not alone in that experience. And B, like we think a lot of like. And C, we're all really

creative and innovative in what we think is possible. We imagined and created Imagination Factory. Right? And we like to say Imagination Factory is where dreams become reality because we're moving from just this concept of what might be to actually bringing that into the world. And so, at Imagination Factory, our our mission is to catalyze and equip innovation in child welfare.

And we do that by working with the innovators, the people who believe that something different is possible. >> And what are you seeing as a result of that work? >> My gosh, we're seeing completely new and different ways being built by the people closest in proximity to families and and people in who are families and communities and you know, and when given the authority to to dream, we're seeing completely new and different solutions be created from scratch that just didn't exist before.

Because we can't just create one solution and then spread it everywhere and think it's going to work. It's not going to work. That's what we've tried to do for all these years. Think foster care is the one solution for kids. Guess what? It's not. Every family is different. Every community is different. And so what can it look like when we truly empower families, youth, and communities to start designing their own solutions based on the conditions in their family and the conditions in their community when they're given the power and the resources to do so.

And that just gets me super super hyped. >> Yeah, I love that community is what I hear you say is community empowers change. >> Yes. Remember Remember when we talked about the system and just how oppressive it can be? It's so like individualistic. Like you feel so isolated whether you're a worker in the system and you're drowning in your cases and you've lost all your friends because they don't invite you out anymore because you can never go because you've got like crisis case happening and you know, that was me. My friends stopped inviting me places. And so it can be incredibly isolating but so was the same for families, right? They can feel

incredibly isolated. is they're the only family that this has happened to or they're ashamed by that. But when we center people's humanity the humanity of those working in the system and especially the humanity of those who the system is seeking to serve. We center that humanity, we see one another, and we start actually building community on an even playing ground, these magical things are able to happen, and it is through innovation and and community that's making it possible.

>> Love that. I was thinking about my own community, and there's so many people who are supporting the group homes, right? They're giving their money to the group homes, and they're doing the fundraisers, and they're well-intentioned family. >> Yes. >> You and I both know that there's better results when kids are raised not by strangers, they're raised by their families, but not everyone knows that.

>> Right. >> They don't all know the data. So, someone is listening from their community and is thinking, "Okay, if I'm not supposed to give my And I'm not telling people to not give their money to a group home, but like if I want to support healing families, not not stranger care, not >> Yes. >> I'm cared for by a staff member." What might they do to help to Where to to put their dollars, and where to put their time, and where to put their efforts into innovation in their own community?

>> Yeah. That's awesome. And while the kids who live there do need support, the people who are investing in that, I would encourage them to find out where in your community are children and families being invested in within their own communities. What story are we actually listening to, and what story or stories are we centering? >> I love that. That's a good segue into my last question for you.

>> Well, there you go. >> When you hear the phrase narrative intelligence, what does it mean to you, and how might you define it? >> Ooh, narrative intelligence. To me, the first concept that comes to mind is like careful stewardship. And so, I I've been a storyteller my whole life. Like, I humor is my jam. I love to tell a funny story. I it just fills me with joy to make people laugh. And also, I can look back and say I have not always been the wisest steward of stories. And so, narrative intelligence to me makes me pause and go like, well, just like, you know, IQ, your intellectual you know, intelligence or your EQ, your emotional intelligence, narrative

intelligence, like, how [snorts] do I become really mindful of the stories I tell myself, I hear, I embrace, I tell others, you know, really pausing and just being intentional and mindful about the stories I believe and the stories I tell. That's what narrative intelligence means to me. Love it. Sherry, is there anything I didn't ask you that I should have or that you want to talk about?

>> I just want to say like, I'm filled with hope. I'm filled with hope because when we start telling new and different stories, I cannot tell you how the stories that we tell through Imagination Factory, the people just come. They just show up. They show up in our inbox, they show up on our website, they show up at our gatherings, and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know any place like this existed." And so, we're out there, we're growing, we're connecting with one another because ultimately, that personal transformation is the impetus, but then we all have to come together.

And when we come when it when a when a community of transformed individuals come together and start organizing, that's how social change happens. And so, I'm filled with hope that we're on the right track, and I believe in 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, I think we're going to see a big difference in this country when it comes to how we protect and invest in our kids and families.

>> Thank you so much for doing that work and for creating better outcomes for families and for kids and for leading us all and for doing this interview. I so appreciate you. Thank you so much and you're so welcome. >> Before we close, here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Sheri began her career inside a story that cast the child welfare system as the rescuer. Then she saw something she could not unsee. The families being helped were often being defined by people with more power than they had. Their stories were being told for them, sometimes in ways that justified intervention resources and authority. And once Sheri began

listening differently, the old story stopped holding. And what struck me most is that this was not just a change in opinion, it was a change in where she located authority, [music] from the system to the family, from expertise alone to lived expertise, from what is wrong with you to what do you know about what you need. And that feels central to narrative intelligence because sometimes the story we need to question is not our own personal story.

Sometimes it's the official story, the one embedded in a profession, an institution, a policy, or [music] an entire system like child welfare. But Sheri did not end in cynicism. She said, "I am filled with hope." Hope because when people begin telling different stories, other people recognize themselves in them. They show up. They find [music] each other. And when transformed individuals come together, they can begin to change the systems around them. So the question I'm leaving with is, who has the power [music] to make one version of a story official?

And what becomes possible when the people living that story [music] are given the power to tell it themselves? Take the narrative question assessment at storykeys.co and subscribe to 100 stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project, wherever you listen or watch. And if you enjoyed this episode, please give it a rating >> [music] >> and share with a friend. Thank you so much for listening.